Or maybe you dont think businesses should actually have to, you know, adapt over time? Meh who knows.

As for “tax workers and businesses so heavily” .. so where in HB3200 was the 80% tax hike that I didn’t see? You seem convinced that increases of less then 5% on -some- taxes, or actually collecting taxes already due by closing loopholes and such, somehow is enough to put microsoft in the poor house. I’m not sure how you reach that mindset.

“If the insurers have no profit motive” – Since when was the profit motive the only reason it is ever ok to do something? Does national defence have to make a profit? Does a police department have to make a profit? What attribute of medical care makes it so that it is somehow required for it to be a profit-driven service? As for private insurance ceasing to exist, I disagree – sucky private insurance companies that are incapable of adjusting their business model may struggle for a few quarters (boo hoo), but the private insurance industry as a whole isnt going anywhere unless they -REALLY- fuck things up for themselves, and im sorry but that wont be the gub’mint’s fault….

In any case, I’ve about lost energy for this discussion. It’s likely that I’ll end my commentary here, so feel free to chime in with the last word.

Thanks much for the discussion so-far, while I disagree I do feel that you’ve raised some valid criticisms that need to be addressed regardless of the type of solution to the “healthcare question”.

Confine insurers to single states; make it prohibitively expensive to actually write insurance policies; prevent re-insurance so insurers can’t protect themselves and their policyholders; stop insurers from denying coverage to people who abuse their insurance agreements; require insurers to provide mandatory minimum levels of coverage on all policies.

On the other side, tax workers and businesses so heavily that the former can’t afford private insurance and the latter would be business-foolish to offer it.

If the insurers have no profit motive and people cannot afford private insurance, private insurance will cease to exist (except for those people who can afford high-quality care).

Seems to me that’s very much the point of H.B. 3200.
It’s not even subtle.

In the end, government takes over and controls healthcare.

There was a time when voting wasnt a right either, and a time when non-discrimination based on race wasnt a right. It’s called progress. It may take us another 200 years, but basic healthcare -should- be a right, and is in many places.

“Last time I checked, poor people don’t provide people with employment, paychecks, or insurance provided to employees. Usually, people that have lots of money do.”

What you meant to say was “corporations that have lots of money do”. There’s a very significant difference.

I still find your defense of the overly wealthy to be really amusing, you presume that even a small percentage of them got “rich” through so-called “hard work” which is just outright false. When you say hard work, I think about laying brick or a plumber. When you say rich person I think of a stock broker or similar desk-jockey (I include myself as a desk jockey, and I’ll never claim that IT work is “hard”).

Successful “rich” small business owners get “rich” by paying you less for your labor then it produces them in profit. It’s a very common misconception that the price of goods and the margin on units sold is what generates the profit in the modern economy, but the simple fact is that if you actually look at the numbers the majority of profitable SP small businesses pay -way- below average wages. It isnt “class warfare marxism crap” (which was obsolete many years ago), it’s math.

You didn’t address the core points in my previous post though. When you get your dreamland of deregulation and the options for your healthcare choice all suck and none of them will cover what you want (ignoring what you may actually need) and not be prevented from denying you care because you stubbed your toe 10 years ago without reporting it… well … I hope I never live in a place like that. To paraphrase an anti-public-healthcare ad, “a choice that sucks is no choice at all”.

Its also a widely held misconception that regulation drives out businesses. I’m not sure how this gets ignored by the “deregulate” crowd, but many parts of the world have -WAY WAY- more regulation over their economy then us, and yet … low and behold … they still have a successful economy, and have businesses that provide goods/services comparable with our own. How is that exactly? How do “over regulated” countries like, oh, the rest of the first-world, manage to keep ANY business at all within their borders? There’s a mountain of evidence that regulation does nothing to scare off business, and just results in more lawyers (which I concede, is not an ideal situation).

Anyway, we’re getting off topic again. Here’s a fun link of lewis black that should give everyone a chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91bI2EZb3Hg

Last time I checked, poor people don’t provide people with employment, paychecks, or insurance provided to employees. Usually, people that have lots of money do. When you tax the shit out of those people, they stop hiring, providing pay checks, and insurance. I work for a very wealthy individual, he pays me well, provides me with a “free” family insurance plan. Stop with the class warfare marxism crap, last time I checked it’s not a crime to make lots of money, actually, we used to think it was a good thing. Maybe in your world, the government provides us with credits for food, insurance, housing, and clothing and the system works all by itself (without those wealthy people that pay for it now).

So…. when none of the insurance providers offer what you need (nevermind what you want), you’ll do what exactly?

Oh right, just “not get sick”. Sorry, I forgot for a moment. Oh wait, you have a pre-existing knee injury? Forget about being covered for the lung cancer you’ll get in 40 years, it’s obviously related…

As for “taxing the rich into poverty” I’d honestly love to live somewhere where adjusted net income (not gross) in the millions of dollars range is considered “poverty”. I’m also highly amused that you’re so concerned about protecting a group of people that actively seek to fuck you over, but hey too each their own

-AGAIN-, I dont know how many times I have to say it, maybe it’ll stick this time …..

If you look at the FACTS, the numbers, you’ll find that a public option is a win-win … if you listen to position-ads, you’ll never know whats going on. For every “ZOMG old lady died from EEEEEVIL socialized medicine” you can find HUNDREDS of “ZOMG poor kid died of polio in EEEEEEVIL american healthcare system”….

Just let me know how many more times to stress that point that it’ll take to sink in so I can do it all at once.